Battery manufacturers vs. V2G -- no easy winners

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V2G technology is receiving a lot of popular media coverage these days. The idea that we can plug in and sell back energy from our electric vehicle battery has a certain appeal in today's demand response environment. But is the idea truly viable, especially from the battery manufacturers' point of view?

Dr. Michael Kintner-Meyer, an electrical power systems integration engineer with the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, says new research and technology from the national lab shows there's an alternative that's also beneficial to both utility and consumer. Speaking at the 2nd Annual Smart Grid for Utilities conference in Austin this week, he presented an alternative, plug-and-play option that's easy for consumers to use and utilities to enable, and saves on battery wear and tear, at the same time.

PNNL's Smart Charger Controller was designed to monitor and mitigate peak demand on the grid, such as dinnertime, so that your automobile isn't adding to the power load at the traditional early evening peak. Currently at prototype stage, the controller device uses a low-range wireless technology to communicate with the power grid to determine the best and cheapest time to recharge the vehicle. The plug-and-play concept involves integrating the device in the car's navigational system, so the auto's owner can choose either the "Charge Now" button or simply set the system to a "Charge By" time for the next morning. (This is ideal for the consumer who wants to take advantage of non-peak electricity prices, but doesn't want to have to plug in at 2 a.m.).

The Smart Charger Controller "never turns the battery into a generator," Kintner-Meyer explains, so the utility is never extracting power from the battery. It's a one-way flow, but optimized for flexible load smart charging. PNNL's technology should leave battery manufacturers extremely happy, especially in California, where electric car batteries are required to have a 10-year lifetime warranty. "Battery manufacturers probably would not like to have the utility cycling energy out of the battery," Kintner-Meyer notes, explaining that each cycle of the battery, whether it be driving, or sending energy back to the grid, shortens its life.

Simply, the question becomes: do you earn enough by selling your auto's extra power back to the utility to cover the cost of replacing your battery prematurely?

PNNL is currently seeking industry partners to move the project from in-lab prototype to an end-to-end, real-world demonstration.

Comments

As hard as it will be to believe, batteries will begin to be replaced by magnetic generators - we call ours MagGen(tm) - within the forseeable future.

These on-board generators will make possible what has been termed Super V2G. Utilities will be able to view vehicles as power plants when parked in locations that have been prepared for wireless connection of up to 150 kW to the grid.

Parallel to MagGen systems will be hybrid vehicles powered by a SPICE(tm). This acronym stands for Self Powered Internal Combustion Engine. A SPICE will be fueled by fractional Hydrogen. Engines of this type will require one gallon of demineralized water as fuel for each 1,000 miles of driving.

Rowan University recently published the results of an independent fractional Hydrogen experiment that pertained to technology producing heat. National laboratories as well as distinguished universities are clearly capable of repeating the experiments and publishing their findings. To the surprise of many, that will herald the use of water as fuel. Using fractional Hydrogen, one barrel of water can equal two hundred or more barrels of oil.

See my posts and our website for more information.
Mark Goldes

Dear Mark,

Do you have any idea what will happen to magnetic field of the Earth in case an application of so called Super V2G starts?
Chavdar Azarov

V2G out of consumer vehicles is a non-starter for all of the reasons Kate states and more. It is even more ridiculous an idea than the water utility tapping water heaters and back yard swimming pools during peak demand. Consumer V2G is favored by people who have not thought the problem through such as certain promoters of non-existant perpetual motion machines.

What does make sense are load leveling chargers. These devices can be fairly stupid, working from fixed timing tables and no grid feedback and still work very well. Fixed schedules also do not introduce feedback instability issues which is a plus for simple and stupid. They can work even better if they know what the grid is up to as the PNNL devices do, provided that feedback stability is properly insured by design. Experience with the internet provides valuable lessons in stability issues of large feedback systems and the difficulties that can occur. When the web gets bogged people are annoyed. Power grid instability is a major economic and public safety issue.

I think the PNNL approach is wrong headed with respect to the radio communication. There is no need for yet another data transmission infrastructure to get this job done. The existing internet infrastructure and HTTP protocols already provide that. What is needed is to standardize the data representation. Once the data format is established then software for the chargers can be designed as can the web pages for the utilities.
Penny Gruber

Chavdar,

MagGen converts energy from sources other than the geomagnetic field. These include ambient heat. Therefore the answer to your question is there will be no effect on the geomagnetic field.

Utilities in California, Delaware and Colorado are experimenting with V2G. A faculty member at the University of Delaware is a leading advocate. Denmark is also running experiments. An Australian University is as well. None of these involve Super V2G.
Mark Goldes

Permanent magnet powered motors, hydrino powered engines, and temperature gradient-less heat engines are extremely shy entities that hide from all witnesses even years after their investment hawking promoters claim working units.
Penny Gruber

Mark,

Would you like to tell that the source is out of our Earth?
Chavdar Azarov

Once MagGen has been independently validated and commercialization is under way, we will release our own energy conversion analysis. Scientists will doubtless debate that issue for some time. Superconductivity in ceramic materials is an analogous example. There is still no general agreement as to the theoretical explanation. What is most important is practical technology. Nobody argues that ceramic superconductors don't function.

Fractional Hydrogen systems reflect equally unsettled theory. Rowan University opened a door to validation of the heat production potential. Commercial generators that utilize heat have been promised for production next year, by the firm cooperating with Rowan.
A recent summary of one perspective on this new science can be found at: http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/blog/7200-lorentz-multiplier-quantum-states-24437.html
Mark Goldes

In the many centuries of claims of: free energy / magnet powered / vacuum powered / fairy powered devices not a single one has ever been proven true. The burden to prove claims of new discoveries is on the claimant. In the entire 25 year history of his energy companies, Mark Goldes has not proved a single one of his energy claims. This is the "new science" he speaks of. The correct spelling is nonsense.
Penny Gruber

We make no claims of free energy. Our work converts new energy sources and capital costs of any energy conversion systems are not free. As mentioned above, these systems are approaching commercialization.

Skeptics are hardly surprising. Our work with Ultraconductors(tm), polymer equivalents of room temperature superconductors, continues to be met with disbelief. The name reflects the fact that we choose not to debate with disbelievers. However, those materials have been independently reproduced for the USAF by Fractal Systems, which succesfully made almost 1,000 samples.

As products from all of our new technologies enter the markets, as they now clearly are going to do, conventional wisdom will change.

Until that occurs, skeptics will dominate the conversation. After it does, they will hardly be heard.
Mark Goldes

No worries Mark. The non-existant generators you have long claimed that operate without any conventional fuel you have never evidenced, and you never will. The rotary devices you claim have been working since 2007 never made it to a test lab and never will. Neither did your claimed and unseen hydrino contraptions. The car you claimed went 5000 miles on ambient heat: disappeared, and is not available for inspection. Neither is available the 206HP outboard motor you claimed ran for a week, nor is available the magic golf cart you claimed also ran powered only by ambient heat. The transformer you claimed was a working OU device in 2004: broke years ago and you can't be bothered to fix it or build another to submit to test. Why? You say it is because you are in a hurry to get to market. That's some hurry you are in. You say you've had working machines for almost five years now, and can't evidence a single one. By the way, where is the contraption that you stated would be tested by EarthTech following completion of tests by Lee Felsenstein the week of 6/25/2008?

The word for you and your ilk is fraud.

Tell me, if hydrinos ( hydrogen with fractional orbits ) only exist in Casimir cavities, then how do they convey any energy outside those cavities?
Penny Gruber

Anyone familiar with the history of science knows that a long list of genuine discoveries were treated with hostile prejudice.

That included the Wright Brothers. Everyone now knows they first flew in 1903, yet it was not until 1908 when then President Teddy Roosevelt asked someone to visit the bicycle mechanics and determine if they really flew, that Scientific American, the New York Times, the Smithsonian, etc. all changed their minds and accepted the facts involved.

Those with a genuine need to evaluate our work have always been able to do so under NonDisclosure Agreements. As the technologies move forward, they will demonstrate their reality more widely and will become impossible to deny.
Mark Goldes

Mark, if your claims for all these scientific breakthroughs are real, surely some of the US federal stimulus package monies are available to your colleagues to help develop them to get them from the laboratory into practical products on the market. And if the technologies are as revolutionary as you claim, there would surely emerge far more funding from private investors after just one product was commercialized.

Remember the boy who persistently cried wolf and eventually no one believed him anymore. If your purported discoveries are not frauds and fabrications, and especially government funds were used to develop just one single product from any one of your claims, it would make international headlines in a pinch and you would be vindicated. What are you and your friends waiting for ?
Bob Amorosi

Rejecting claims that have no evidence in favor, and incalculably large bodies of evidence against them is not prejudice. Rejecting the unevidenced claims of proven frauds is not prejudice. It is critical reasoning at work.

Misrepresentation of the Wright Brothers as defying science of the early 1900s is a favorite of pseudoscience promoting crazies and frauds who won't be bothered to deal in factual history. The Chinese were flying kites as early as 400 BC. Daniel Bernoulli's Hydrodynamica published in 1738. Manned gliders were flying in the mid 1800s. Samuel Langley flew powered, but unmanned model aircraft 12 years before Kitty Hawk. The Wright Brothers in fact relied heavily on Chanute's 1894 "Progress in Flying Machines" for key guidance in their efforts. The Wright Brothers' achievement of powered manned flight was the result of diligent application of the science of their time, not snake oil fantasies. Only the ignorant and frauds claim that Wright Brothers defied science of the day. Contrary to pseudoscience peddling frauds like yourself, the Wright Brothers were readily able to demonstrate what they claimed.

Given that you have long claimed that you have shown several multi billion dollar organizations your snake oil under NDA and not a one has partnered with, or is funding you, it is safe to infer that having seen your secrets, they don't believe you. It's rather hard to take anyone seriously who claims to have a car that ran 4800 miles on ambient heat, but they can't produce it for inspection.
Penny Gruber

Bob,

Modest government funds have been provided for our Ultraconductors(tm). We completed four Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) contracts. These included a Phase I and a highly competitive Phase II with the USAF; followed by two Phase I contracts with what is now called the Missile Defense Agency. We were invited to apply for an additional Phase II but due to the "March-in Clause" in government contracts, decided to pass. That clause gives the government royalty free rights to inventions made on such contracts for the life of any resulting patents.

Private capital is at last interested in cutting edge technology. We no longer have any shortage of serious interest in funding our work, although that was a problem for some time following the dot.com crash. High-tech firms not yet producing revenue had a long period where capital was extremely scarce. Even venture firms (I am a former consultant on venture capital to a unit of the U.S. Department of Commerce) on rare occasions now seek out game changing technologies. They have always claimed to do so, but anyone familiar with that industry knows that has rarely been true. By the way, I was also a consultant on economic development to the N.Y. office of then Senator Robert F. Kennedy.
Mark Goldes

The energy generator technology claims you make if true would have changed the energy landscape forever. They are not. They never have been. This is why you never submit any device to independent test. This is why each time one of your dates lapses badly you abandon your snake oil dejour and declare you have discovered yet another even better magic energy technology.

Where's the magic overunity transformer? You've said you've had one working since 2004.
Where's the magic overunity tuning fork? You've said you've had that working since early 2007.
Where's the magic overunity motor? You've said you've had that since mid 2007.
Where's the magic ambient heat engine? Over a year ago you said you had a car that ran 4800 miles on it.

You said the transformer broke. You said you never built another one because it so much faster and easier to build your magic tuning forks. That was three years ago. After a year and a half of the tuning fork ruse, you switched to the ambient heat scam. The car, the outboard motor, the golf cart you all said ran from ambient heat alone, you cannot produce for inspection. You told the childishly ridiculous story that the inventor removed the engine, and sold the car. The car is gone but where is the magic motor that you say propelled it? Was it siezed with the outboard motor and golf cart by agents of big oil or aliens? Now you're onto the hydrino scam. For a person who constantly complains of a shortage of R&D funds you sure are willing to throw precious cash in many directions at once. We both know how the story will go. In the not too distant future, likely within 12 months you will announce yet another wonderful breatkthrough that redirects your scarce resources and precludes evidencing what you most recently claimed. Will it be zero bias diodes, magic piezo electric devices, or sheep's bladders used to predict earthquakes?
Penny Gruber

The future will suffice to tell the tale.
Mark Goldes

In this case history serves as a very reliable predictor. You've established a quarter century history of telling fantastical tales of nonexistant wonder energy machines. The quantity, variety, and persistence of your storytelling in exchange for investor cash earns you the dishonorary title of: "The Baron Von Munchausen of the Free Energy Circuit".
Penny Gruber

Mark, if the "future will tell the tale", I suspect you may not be around to see it given none of the fantastic discoveries you've been involved in over the last 25 years have ever been seen employed in practice. So if I were you, don't forget whatever you post on the internet today can come back to haunt you in the future, just as Obama wanted to preach to some school kids lately. There are also many who would accuse you of being a swindler if the purpose of your stories was to drum up investment money. The landscape has changed dramatically in the US in recent years as other swindlers like Enron executives etc. have gone to jail for knowingly misleading their investors, so if I were you I would be very careful about what you post on the internet.
Bob Amorosi

It may be helpful for those who believe the energy future will not include our technologies to view these recent items:

www.paulstory.com

http://industry.bnet.com/energy/10001849/blacklight-power-returns-with-more-lab-validation/

Since these are indeed world changing technologies they are inherently slow and extremely difficult. As President Kennedy once said: "We choose to go to the moon and do the other things in this decade, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize..."
Mark Goldes

Why you should think that another scam: Black Light Power, should reflect favorably on you makes no sense at all. Mill's physics ideas and math have been shredded by real experts in the field. Twenty years in, Mills like you can't show free energy pouring out of even a lab curiosity.

Paul Story is a credulous fiction writer with absolutely no observations of your company. He still wants to believe in the Irish scammers Steorn whose own scientific jury has come back saying they have absolutely nothing.

If you want credibility then it is up to you to produce verifiable evidence of what you claim. You can't even come up with a testimonial. There isn't one expert who has seen your energy snake oil who will vouch to it.
Penny Gruber

The Rowan University experiments validating fractional Hydrogen as a new source of energy have been successfully repeated by GEN3 Partners, a firm that advises Fortune 100 companies. They employ 7,000 engineers and scientists.

Since the power produced by fractional Hydrogen (which we call ECHO - Energy from Collapsing Hydrogen Orbits) is inherently cost-competitive, Super V2G is likely to find market acceptance. Especially, since cars, trucks and buses powered by ECHO will also be able to power a home or a business. No need for wires.

When I first spoke to a utility about innovation, back about 1975, I was told by a senior engineer: Mark, what we consider innovation in the utility industry is a wooden power pole that can be coated with an improved creosote, so it will last another 2 or 3 years before replacement.

The industry has come a long way since.

Economics will inevitably open new doors and let light into places that have been closed to new ideas and perspectives.

Since an early application of ECHO involves sharply improved fuel mileage in existing vehicles, it is likely to penetrate minds and markets more easily than might be imagined.
Mark Goldes

this new tecnology sounds like a no brainer when we convert autos to electric autos

http://www.sunrisesolarnow.com
Tom Lyons

solar is booming,play more important role in the energy sector, solar is continue to grow this year. post from http://www.landpowersolar.com
John Ryan


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